The Great Snatch REBUTTAL Part 2

PART 2 of 2

The Great Snatch REBUTTAL

continued

[Post-Tribulation Views

There are at least four distinct types of post-tribulational views:(2)

1. Classic post-tribulationism (J. Barton Payne, et al);

2. Semi-classic post-tribulationism (Alexander Reese);

3. Futuristic post-tribulationism (George E. Ladd);

4. Dispensational post-tribulationism (Robert H. Gundry).]

There is another view that is not from this list excerpted from John Walvoord's paper on Post-Tribulationism Today. That view is a "literal" post-tribulational rapture, as literally stated, at the seventh and last trumpet!

[These differing views are based upon different approaches, presuppositions, and argumentation. In fact, they substantially contradict each other. As one insists on literalness, each of these views must embrace increasing difficulties. Those of us who cling to a very literal view of the Scriptures believe that the church will be removed prior to the tribulation period (the "pre-tribulation" view). Why? What is the basis for this view?]

Yes, there have been differing views regarding the post-trib doctrine since the understanding was delivered via the scriptures. Many of these changes can be seen as having been brought forth by the fulfillment of prophecies and by interpreting history in general over the centuries. Yet, the pre-trib doctrine has no observable history prior to John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren of the 1860's. And if it had not been for C. I. Scofield and his adoption of the pre-trib doctrine into his reference Bible, this doctrine may have never reached the degree of history it now has.

The greatest contradictions I see are those of the very broad pre-trib following. So much of their doctrine utilizes "bridges" formed from non-Biblical sources to explain and create the building blocks of their beliefs. Many of these are not universally accepted by the numerous pre-trib theologs due to the fact that there is no clear scriptural support for many of these fabricated support pillars. Probably one of the most difficult to reconcile is their widely acclaimed boast to "literally interpret the scriptures". They also allege that the post-trib doctrine has many problems particular to the belief that the post-tribbers do not literally interpret the scriptures to the extent that the pre-tribbers do. I challenge you to produce as many "literal" scripture uses, with as much natural, contextual connectivity, maintaining the same degree of thematic flow. This doctrine is clear, using only scripture in its context as its building blocks.

Most of the contradictions within the pre-trib ranks occur around these non-scriptural "bridges". There are many differing opinions to explain these man-made links. Here are some of those "bridges" they attempt to construct and some of the problems those answers create:

Bridge #1 The early church lived in imminency, awaiting the any moment, without sign return of Christ.

Yes they did, and they even penned the scriptures with that understanding. But was the Lord's return really to be imminent? Were there to be signs preceding the Lord's return? Do we know why the early church embraced imminency? Are there sufficient scriptures to support views other than that of imminency?

a) The Lord appeared for some forty days after His crucifixion to His followers after His Glorious resurrection and before He ascended to the Father. As far as anyone knew, He could and would come again, without a sign given, hence, some reasoning behind the atmosphere of His imminent return.

b) Jesus Himself gave numerous signs as to the general time frame of when we were to expect Him. Due to the fact that these signs present us with a post-trib timing and many of the signs were being fulfilled in their day, those who embraced this imminency must have truly felt they were experiencing the events that would precede Christ's return. History bears witness to the fact many of these signs being fulfilled, i.e., persecution of believers, Jerusalem being threatened, arise of antichrist(s), scoffers, and apostasy.

Review the following scripture segments which indicate and support this thought: Matt. 13:39-41,43 "... the harvest is the end of the world; [40] ... so shall it be in the end of this world. [41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Notice that the righteous do not shine in the kingdom of their Father UNTIL the end: Matt. 24:13-15 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. [15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

Traditionally, the dispensationalists will tell us that Jesus was speaking to the Jews exclusively. This too is either a cleverly devised fabrication, or a divine insight given by the Holy Spirit, for which no scriptural support exists. I suppose He was addressing the Jews only in Mt. 13 also? And even if He were speaking solely to the Jews here, He gave them signs that would precede His return. And in their perspective, they witnessed the fulfillment of verse 15, even though it was foretold in conjunction with the end. And what of the Gospel being preached in all the world?

Matt. 24:21-22 "For then shall be great tribulation, ... [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Again, the great tribulation precedes saving the elect, which would not be possible unless the days are shortened. This great tribulation, which starts 31/2 years after Israel signs a covenant with many or signs many covenants, is another sign to precede His return. And what of this elect to be saved post-trib?

Matt. 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

These particular signs, given to us by the Lord, are the most clear post-trib indications in His Olivet Discourse. He establishes a specific event in time, i.e., the tribulation of those days, after which another distinctive series of signs will occur in the heavens. Then He describes an arrangement of occurrences, which, by their description, mimic practically every previous and subsequent account of the Rapture! Some of the parallel verses to check against are: Mt. 13:38-43; John 17:15-19; 1Cor. 15:20-27; 1Cor. 15:51-55; 2Thes. 1:4-10; 2Thes. 2:1-15; Rev. 11:15-19; Rev. 14: 13-15.

A closing thought on this concept of imminency. The Lord clearly gave signs of His post-tribulational return. And even if some of these signs were intended for the Jews only, which they weren't, then why would these same Jews who penned the scriptures embrace this imminency? Because they saw great tribulation surrounding them, they saw Jerusalem surrounded about and invaded in 70 AD, they witnessed an abomination in the Holy place, they wrote and warned of the impending antichrist(s), and experienced wrath and martyrdom at the hands of different antichrists. For them, His return was definitely post-trib! How can you reconcile that the disciples were Jewish only in the context of Matt. 24, with an understanding of their post-trib deliverance, AND yet they wrote from a "surrounded by tribulation" slant, AND supposedly still embraced the pre-trib rapture. That is so convoluted and contradictory it is sad.

Now, regarding the allegations in this section of the "presuppositions and argumentation" of the post-trib scholars which contradict themselves. See if you agree with that analogy after viewing these "literal" shortcomings of the pre-trib Rapture scholars:

Bridge #2 The Church must be removed from the earth early separately in order for GOD to deal with Israel exclusively in the completion of Daniel's prophecy, i.e., the 70th week of Daniel.

Not a single verse exists to support this, yet it is one of the building blocks of the pre-trib beliefs. With this view also comes the necessity to differentiate between Israel and the Church in the scriptures. It demands privileged interpretation in order to say, "this verse pertains to Israel", or "this is a Jewish question". It is only through this necessity to differentiate that these "private interpretations" must be considered to explain the questions generated through the use of non-scriptural exegesis.

In an earlier statement, one of the foundational beliefs of the pre-trib following was presented briefly when it was stated "the church... was absent from the first 69 [weeks]. This is in spite of the fact that Dan 9:24 indicates that all 70 weeks are for Israel." I can't understand how all of these "scholars" have managed to miss this one! The most accepted and celebrated Messianic prophecy to be fulfilled is probably that of Christ riding the untamed donkey colt into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday to proclaimed King of the Jews. This event signaled the end of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy. It's fulfillment has been proven to have been so literally and precisely accomplished that many doubters believed the prophecy was most likely written after the time of Christ instead of some 550 years before it's fulfillment. Loosely stated, this prophecy was given to Daniel approximately 520 years before Christ was born, while Israel was still in Babylonian captivity. In total, it proclaimed that Israel would be allotted 70 weeks (of years) or 490 years of time in order for certain promises to be accomplished. Here's the NAB translation of that prophecy:

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and for your holy city: Then transgression will stop and sin will end, guilt will be expiated, Everlasting justice will be introduced, vision and prophecy ratified, and a most holy will be anointed."

In other words, salvation would be delivered to Israel and Messiah proclaimed. The prophecy goes on in verse 25 to say that the Messiah would be revealed 69 weeks or 483 years from the point in time when the command would be given to rebuild Jerusalem. EXACTLY 173,880 days (483 Jewish years) after that command was issued, Jesus rode into Jerusalem.

All of this has been to establish the fact that Jesus' ministry began during midpoint of the 69th week. Some 3 to 31/2 years prior to this Palm Sunday, Jesus opened up this exclusively Jewish ministry to the Gentiles when He ministered and evangelized to the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4. He began preaching the Gospel in the 3rd chapter of John. The undeniable fact remains that Christ's entire ministry, prior to His crucifixion, was within the 69th week time frame! This includes EVERY aspect and case of gentile proselytizing. To say that the Church was not present during the 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy simply isn't true. The Apostles even began their ministries during this 69th week. The New Testament Church was born when Jesus began His ministry, regardless of who the original or intended members were. The fact that the Gentiles were not allowed or asked into the Church until some year or so after the ministry began, does not change the fact that the Church was in existence from the beginning, despite the membership! The most common pre-trib excuse for this "oversight" is that the church really didn't have it's beginning until the day of Pentecost. That doesn't do much for the thief that hung on the cross with Christ that was told "today, you shall be with me in paradise". Or, what about all the dead that arose as the Lord gave up the Ghost? Were they of the church? What of all the scriptures, which tie the New Testament church to the same, body of Old Testament believers?

And if you dig deep enough, you should find that the birth of Christ was NOT the beginning of His ministry, but the fulfillment of all GOD had promised and Israel had expected. The "devout" Simeon referred to the newborn Messiah as his salvation, as revealed to him via the Holy Ghost in Luke 2: Luke 2:30-32 "For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, [31] Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; [32] A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel."

And at that same encounter was Anna, the aged prophetess, who declared the fulfillment of Jerusalem’s (Israel’s) redemption by the arrival of the redeemer. First the O.T. prophecy, then the N.T. fulfillment:

Isaiah 52:9 "Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem."

Luke 2:38 "And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem."

Perhaps the best known and most convincing declaration of the N.T. Church being a fulfillment of the O.T. Saints came from the Lord Himself as He read from Isaiah 61, verses 1 and 2. Although it is quite important that He did not read all of the second verse of Isaiah 61, He did proclaim that the scripture contents He did read was fulfilled in their presence.

Luke 4:18-19, 21 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, [19] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord… [21] This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

These are the promises of Israel, claimed this day by the Church. How can we claim something promised to someone else? Because the Church is an extension of the O.T. Saints! The Lord has made promises with the righteous, as well as promises with the nation of Israel. Only because of the "nation’s" rejection of the Messiah was this "twofold" promise fulfilled in a "split" manner. Israel will be "spiritually" redeemed from their sins if and when they accept Jesus as Christ. And Israel will be "physically" redeemed when the 144,000 representatives of every tribe accept their "new song" covenant with the Lord in Rev. 7:1-8 and 14:1-5, as foretold in Ezekiel 8:17-9:11.

Bridge #3 The Holy Spirit has the role as the restrainer and must be removed to allow the son of perdition his reign of terror on the saints.

With this supposed removal of the Holy Spirit, they claim that the Church also must be removed, hence their rapture. Again, not a single verse exists to support this, unless you're inclined to follow unfounded, yet much needed, "devised narration". Their scholars will quickly tell you that the words used to indicate or describe the "restrainer" are of "a neutered gender", which they say is applicable to the Holy Spirit. The truth is that the lack of gender assigned to the word only serves to deny the sure identity as a male or female. Besides assuming the identity of the restrainer to be the Holy Spirit, there is also the presupposition of the role as a restrainer, which the Holy Spirit has not previously been assigned to. There are no scriptures that lend to the Holy Spirit operating in the role as an agent of restraint. On the other hand, there are verses, which indicate the archangel Michael as the guardian and prince of Israel in the books of Daniel, Jude, and Revelation.

The theologians that adhere to this belief will also tell you that the Holy Spirit must return in order to serve the evangelizing that continues up to and through the tribulation period until Christ returns. They recognize the verses that indicate that the Holy Spirit is promised to believers until the end of time, yet they cannot produce scriptural support expressing the need for His removal in the pre-trib rapture.

Again, removal of the Holy Spirit creates as many questions and theological problems as the ultra-dispensation doctrine does. The early Church not only lived through a number of antichrists as told in 1 John 2:18-20, but were also told that "an unction from the Holy One" would aid them to know all things concerning the antichrists. That is why Christ gives REPEATED EMPHASIS in Matthew 24 regarding the false prophets to come. If it is possible, He said, even the VERY ELECT will be deceived. With that strong of a warning, do you think that this "deception" will be possible? Perhaps not for you or I, but consider the believers without the WHOLE TRUTH of the scriptures for strength, wisdom, and discernment of the times. The apostle John wrote about the antichrist to come, as well as the many that were amongst them at that time. The verse below is more appropriately translated "it is the last hour", which gives support to the view that John was attempting a parallel with Christ's last hour on the cross, in turn, giving his impression of the great tribulation the Church was then experiencing.

1 John 2:18-20 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. [19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. [20] But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Bridge #4 The Church MUST be removed prior to the time of great tribulation.

Again, the Church must only be removed to satisfy the dispensational views of the Pre-Trib doctrine. More correctly, the pre-trib belief should be described as "pre-seventieth week of Daniel" or "pre-covenant". The contention is that the time of great tribulation is actually the prophesied Wrath of GOD. Again, going against their supposed literal interpretation adeptness, they readily forsake the literally expressed verses which indicate the Wrath of GOD as being contained in the bowls or vials of Revelation 15:7 and forward. This forced rendering causes the entire 70th week period of Daniel's prophecy to become the Wrath of GOD and their NEEDED tribulation. Verses in Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 clearly indicate that the beginning of this great tribulation is some 31/2 years into the seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy. The pre-trib rapture has erroneously been assigned the label as an escape from the great tribulation, a measure of GOD's Love for the Church. The Church has only been promised "escape" from GOD's Wrath. Define the elements of GOD's Wrath and you will see that the pre-trib rapture is unnecessarily, "unscriptural", and incorrectly early.

If you truly want to see a more clear layout of prophecy chronology that is Biblically synchronous, try going through the scriptures matching groupings of verses that parallel in theme, context, and timing and see what truths GOD will develop before your eyes.

Looking at the prophetic writings of Paul, we can clearly see that he was addressing the prophecies with a sense of expectancy. Why? He believed he was living the foretold tribulation, and that he and the Church would live to see antichrist come to power, all before the gathering together of the Rapture. In his first letter to the Thessalonians, Paul is concerned that the tribulation may have been so great as to tempt believers away from the faith. In Paul's second letter to Thessalonica, he is concerned that a fraudulent letter or rumor has undermined the faith of believers by misleading them to believe that the Rapture and the Day of the Lord has taken place without them. He clears up the misunderstanding by reiterating the events that will precede the Rapture and the Day of Christ, i.e., the apostasy occurs first, then the antichrist is revealed, and he qualifies this by warning these believers against anyone deceiving them to the contrary. Check it out, better yet, study it in its context. But watch out, the pre-trib explanation of the 2 Thess. passages is that the apostasy IS the rapture.

1 Thes. 3:3-5 "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. [4] For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. [5] For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain."

2 Thes. 2:1-3 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Bridge #5 The 144,000 saved of Israel will continue the work of the Church, evangelizing the world, after the Church leaves in the pre-trib rapture.

Here is another poorly devised "bridge". Consider the following pit falls created by this thought:

a) During the opening of the seals in Rev. 6, martyrdom begins to show up at the 5th seal 6:9, at what looks like the beginning of the Great Tribulation. This is approximately 31/2 years into the seventieth week.

b) During the interlude between the 6th and 7th seals being opened, we finally see the 144,000 gathered for sealing. They are not sealed until 7:4.

c) This leaves more than a 31/2 year gap in which there are no Christians on earth! This is in shameful contradiction to the scriptures.

How do we reconcile the following verses in the light of the pre-trib insistence of hyper-dispensationalism?

Speaking of the 31/2 year gap in when there are no Christians on earth:

Isaiah 9:7a "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,"

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,...: [20] Teaching them...: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

What of these passages with post-trib indications?

1 Cor. 15:23-24 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

2 Cor. 1:13-14 "For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; [14] As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus."

1 Thes. 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

1 Peter 1:13 "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"

According to Isaiah 2:11-12, 2:17-18, in the Day of the Lord, the Lord ALONE is exalted. This passage from Daniel shows that the antichrist is exalted, or exalts himself, above GOD, and this doesn't begin to happen until the 31/2 year point of the seventieth week!

Daniel 11:36-37 "And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. [37] Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all."

[The Pre-Tribulation View (3)

The Rapture is characterized in the New Testament as a "translation coming" (1Corinthians 15:51-52; 1Thessalonians 4:15-17) in which the Lord comes for His church, taking her to His Father's House (John 14:3). However, at Christ's Second Coming with His saints, He descends from heaven to set up His Messianic Kingdom on earth (Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:27-31). The differences between the two events are harmonized naturally by the "pre-trib" position, while other views are not able to account comfortably for such differences.]

No fixed time frame is necessary to justify these events as separate. Although the scriptures give plenty of indications of the Rapture and Coming of Christ, each event presents differing descriptions. The apparent contradiction occurs when it appears that each event is scheduled for the same basic period in time. The problem only exists because we are concerned with making this reconciliation within the confines of our mortal understanding. GOD has indicated that not only will He bring judgment on or at the last day, but He will also resurrect the saints on that same named day. Because man has been unable to reconcile this understanding to the literal contentment of the scriptures, he has thought it appropriate to place these things in the time frames he can comprehend. Chuck Missler understands better than most that time, as we understand it, is relative to and dependent upon a number of parameters, These being comprised of our position in space, speed of travel, gravity, etc. I am not qualified to give a lecture in physics to explain this, though I will touch briefly on the subject to attempt to show that GOD controls matters outside of our restrictions of time.

The first view we have of this theory is from the 10th century AD, from the writings of Moses Maimonides. He was a Jewish sage from Spain and Portugal. He is credited with being a physician, a scientist, a philosopher, and a rabbi. He arrived at a theory on dimensionality, concluding that there are some 10 dimensions in the universe, 4 of which are moveable and 6 of which are fixed or immovable, time being one of the moveable dimensions. All of these conclusions were the result of his studies and readings from the book of Genesis. Albert Einstein also understood that time was relative and a physical property. It was an essential tool in the determination of his limited theory of relativity. In an astonishing coincidence, current-day scientists have concluded "there are some 10 dimensions in the universe, 4 of which are moveable and 6 of which are fixed or immovable, time being one of the moveable dimensions."

These understandings about time have been scientifically proven. With that knowledge, it is possible to conceive that GOD's Word can indeed mean exactly what it says, not only will He bring judgment on or at the last day, but He will also resurrect the saints on that same named day, which also includes the rapture of the living!

1Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rev. 11:15-18 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. [16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, [17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. [18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

[A New Testament Mystery

Paul speaks of the Rapture as a "mystery" (1 Corinthians 15:51-54), that is, a truth not revealed until its disclosure by the apostles (Colossians 1:26). The Second Coming, on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament (Daniel 12:1-3; Zechariah 12:10; 14:4). In fact, the oldest prophecy uttered by a prophet was given before the flood of Noah and was of the Second Coming! It was given by Enoch, quoted in Jude 14-15.]

It is appropriate at this point to inquire into the pre-trib handling of the verse in Revelation that addresses the culmination or pinnacle of this "mystery".

In His dictation to John, what did the Lord Himself have to say about the events of the last trumpet?

Rev. 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Is He referencing the mystery of the time of the Gentiles, or the mystery of the rapture, or the mystery of the end of the Church age? It matters not, because all three have the same ending time in the "seventh trumpet" post-trib theology. Yet, if we look closely at what the Lord has just stated in Rev. 10:7, we can know precisely what He was referring to. Here's what He said: Rev. 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Now look at the only referral to a "mystery" "as he hath declared" to occur as the result of a trumpet: 1Cor. 15:51-55 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Any "explanation" offered by the pre-trib camp, or any camp for that matter, undermines the literal translation of these verses and how they are connected.

Is the placement of Rev. 10:7 between the 6th and 7th trumpets of further significance? Yes, it gives added weight to the proposal that the seventh trumpet ushers the culmination of the rapture "mystery of GOD."

[The movement of the believer at the Rapture is from earth to heaven; at the Second Coming it is from heaven to earth. At the Rapture, the Lord comes for His saints (1Thessalonians 4:16), while at the Second Coming the Lord comes with His saints (1Thessalonians 3:13).]

This is difficult to comprehend within our limited understandings, but the scriptures do support a same day occurrence of both events, perhaps even as one episode. Many scholars seem bent on placing the time frame within "earthly" constraints of time measurement. As mortal men & women, we are confused to think that we can or must figure out what all scripture means and pertains to. How much "time" do you suppose it would require GOD to do this? Perhaps this is indeed one of the mysterious aspects of the resurrection and rapture, how they will occur as literally stated. There's no doubt in my mind that the Lord can do anything, especially if He says it.

[Post-tribulation Problems

One of the strengths of the pre-trib view is that it is better able to harmonize the many events of end-time prophecy because of the above distinctions. There are some awkward difficulties with the post-tribulational view:]

As far as the preceding statement is concerned, I do believe that considerable doubt has been generated, perpetrated, and demonstrated in the preceding pages regarding the credibility of the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. Again, the difficulties lie in our willingness or ability to extract all teaching and understanding available to us through the scriptures, within the limits established by GOD.

[1) The post-tribulation view requires that the church be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27), even though it was absent from the first 69. This is in spite of the fact that Dan 9:24 indicates that all 70 weeks are for Israel. We believe the church must depart prior to the 70th week, before the final seven-year period (see our briefing package, Daniel's 70 Weeks, for further study).]

It has been covered in part earlier. In the Scriptures, you cannot get around the repeated theme that we are part of "spiritual" Israel. The greatest evidence of this is listed a dozen times in the book of Isaiah alone when Christ is repeatedly referred to as the Holy One of Israel, just as He is our Holy One. Israel’s refusal to receive the Messiah did not negate any agreement which the Lord has come to fulfill. Check the accompanying scriptures for parallels between Old & New Testament believers and see that the Church is THAT fulfillment:

Isaiah 61:1-2 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; [2] To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,…"

Isaiah 62:5, 11-12 [5] For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee...[62:11] Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. [12] And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

Isaiah 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Zech. 13:7-9, Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. [8] And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. [9] And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Romans 2:28-3:18 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 3:29-30 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 11:16-28 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. [17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; [18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. [19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. [20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: [21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Hebrews 9:15 "And for this cause He is the Mediator of the new testament, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, that they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Hebrews 11:9-10 "By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

Hebrews 11:13,16 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city."

Hebrews 11:39-40 "And all these, having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise; God having provided something better for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Both, Old & New Testament believers, are told throughout the Word that they are one in the same, part of the same "flock", having the same "Shepherd". See if you discern the same understanding as many do when they realize that John 10:16 is a fulfillment of the O.T. and N.T. saints being of the same body:

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Isaiah 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Jeremiah 23:2-3 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. [3] And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Ezekiel 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Micah 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

[2) The post-tribulation view denies the New Testament teaching of imminency--that Christ could come at any moment--since there are intervening events required in that view. We believe there are no signs that must precede the Rapture.]

The issue of imminency has been sufficiently covered earlier in this writing. If it is not to your satisfaction, I will look into any viable points raised. You may consider any number of conflicts with this position, such as:

What purpose do all of the "signs" serve that precede His coming, i.e., a) warnings of antichrist b) scoffers, and apostasy c) signs in the heavens d) admonishments to enduring, overcoming, persevering, e) saturation theology on tribulation?

Since I love nothing more than digging through the treasures of GOD's Word, here's a few more scriptures dealing with (or against) imminency.

Why do you suppose Christ spent the time to discuss the signs of the end and to reiterate "these are indeed all the things to precede My coming"? (Author's paraphrase) as He indicates in the following verses:

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

These next few verses are particularly interesting to Jews and the Church. It seems very clear, be comparing to associated verses, that the time of "the times of the Gentiles" is the Church age with Gentile inclusion. Note that the reference to this time immediately precedes the fourth trumpet of Revelation and the "nearing" of their redemption. Note also that this in turn precedes the Coming of the Lord and the statement that the Kingdom of GOD is near. Redemption and the Kingdom should have been realized, for the disciples, at the "pre-trib" rapture.

Luke 21:24-25 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

[25] And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luke 21:27-28 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

The warning in the next verse would seem unnecessary given the supposition of the pre-trib rapture. Why should the Jews be caught "unawares" since they would know that the "pre-trib" rapture had taken place nearly 7 years before? If the "pre-trib" rapture had already taken place, all they have to do is watch the signs Christ had given them EXCLUSIVELY. Notice too, that the "day" to overtake them "unawares" parallels the day of the Lord.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

How do we know that the preceding passages from Luke 21 are not exclusive to Israel and that the "times" of the Gentiles is the Church age? In Romans 11:25 we are told that Israel's spiritual blindness will NOT go away until the "fullness" or end of this time occurs. In other words, the end will not come, nor the Lord, until the foreordained number of persons to except Christ, is filled. This has not happened up to the point of the fourth trumpet vs.25, and this emphasizes that if the "fullness of time" has not occurred, the Church is present during the tribulation, and Matt. 24 is a depiction of the post-trib rapture and DOES INCLUDE the Church. We also see their redemption seems tied to this "time", and their redemption is not near until vs. 27-28, the "fullness of time" occurs as a result of the Lord's coming. This parallels everything stated previously in this study.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The disciples were given signs. They wrote from a position of imminency. They apparently saw signs being fulfilled. And if they wrote with an imminent viewpoint, they undoubtedly realized that if the Lord could return at any moment, then that would be the reason for warnings against allowing "that day" to come upon you "unawares".

Matthew 24:48-50 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Luke 12:45-46 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; [46] The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

1 Thes. 5:2-4 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1 Thes. 5:6-7 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. [7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Are we then to believe that these parallel verses are also EXCLUSIVELY Jewish expositions? The parable reference to the lord of the household delaying his coming is interesting. Yet, the servant knows not how long his delay shall be.

Embracing imminency without exploring the reason or possible reasons is akin to escapism and says nothing in the proving of the position.

[3) The post-tribulation view has difficulties with who will populate the Millennium(4) if the Rapture and the Second Coming occur at essentially the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the Rapture and all unbelievers are judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's Kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the Millennium.]

What difficulties? The scriptures give numerous indications that not everyone will be destroyed or translated at Christ's coming. Firstly, the promised physical remnant of Israel being "saved" is satisfied by the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish males of Rev. 7, which parallels graphically with Ezekiel 9 and the likeness of Christ performing the sealing. Secondly, this remnant receives a "private" audience with Christ on Mt. Zion, in Rev. 14:1-5, just prior to the preaching of the Gospel being completed (14:6-7), and the detailed depiction of the rapture in 14:14-16. In this audience, they are given a "new song" which is exclusive to them only, indicative of a possible "new covenant" by which they are protected "through" the time of GOD's Wrath. This song essentially corresponds to the songs of the following verses as to the possible contents and would satisfy the Israeli remnant, promised in covenant, and required as long as the earth stands. 33rd Psalm; 96th Psalm; 98th Psalm; Isaiah 42:10.

Look closely at these verses for glimpses of the remnant and their co-survivors:

Isaiah 26:20-21, 27:1, 5, 6 "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. [21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

[27:1] In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. [5] Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me. [6] He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.

Isaiah 51:11-12 Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

Thirdly, the indication given in verses Rev. 14:9-11 is not everyone has taken the mark of the beast. Perhaps some do not take the mark and are not believers. This thought comes from verses 14:17-20, where the harvest of the "tares" follows the harvest of the "wheat". This gathering of the tares appears at Armageddon, and is doubtful to consist of everyone left on earth, except for the 144,000, because in verse 16:2, the wrath is not listed to ALL, only to all who took the "mark". You see a suggestion of a "saved" Israel and other possible earthbound "survivors" in the next passages from Isaiah 61. If literal interpretation counts for anything, compare the text that Jesus read in the synagogue to the source it was taken from. Pay close attention to where He stopped His reading, and the emphasized action to be fulfilled next by Him!

Luke 4:18-19 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, [19] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

Isaiah 61:1-6 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; [2] To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; [3] To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

[4] And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. [5] And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. [6] But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

The riches, fields, and flocks are physical items that would only be of interest to those that had not been "glorified" in the Lord, as the church.

There are many other scriptures that give similar indications of the survivors to inhabit the Millennium.

[4) Similarly, post-tribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the Second Coming in Matthew 25:3- 46. Where would the believers in mortal bodies come from if they are raptured at the Second Coming? Who would be able to enter into Christ's Kingdom?]

The scripture reference is not correct and should read Mt. 25:31-46.

This idea is conveyed in the previous section and aligns somewhat with the pre-trib thought of the Millennial inhabitants.

[5) The Bride of Christ, the church, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Revelation 19:7-8, 14) before the Second Coming, but how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on the earth awaiting the Second Coming? If the Rapture of the church takes place at the Second Coming, then how does the Bride (the church) also come with Christ at His Return?]

As covered earlier, the scriptures provide plenty of signals that the rapture and the second coming occur the same day. Our desire to reconcile what seems to be a time discrepancy is quite possibly due to the lack of time as a factor in the heavenly and spiritual realms. A lack of understanding on our part does not constitute an emergency on GOD's part.

Regarding the Bride in Rev. 19:7-8, 14 and attempting to assign a time frame, consider the chronology as it occurs in the scriptures and for the time being, forget about what looks like spaces between the events. These "spaces" appear to be as "sound bites" of information being distributed to John as they are viewed or received. Observe this:

1) The resurrection & rapture appears in 11:15-18 and again in 14:12-16 with different or additional details

2) The tares gathering appears in 11:15-18 and again in 14:17-20 with different or additional details

3) The Church is confirmed in heaven in 15:2-3 before the Wrath can be delivered.

4) The Wrath starts at 16:2 (1st vial)

5) The Thief states He is coming in vs. 16:15, between the 6th & 7th vials

6) Yet the Bride who will accompany the Thief is not shown to be in preparation and readiness until 19:7-8, 14.

Is the problem that the chronology is scrambled or is it that we cannot reconcile the issue of the space between these verses? This sequence of events is consistent throughout the scriptures. The difficulty in harmonizing the spaces is an issue of time and our inability to connect the details of each particular event in succession to verify a probable flow and continuity.

[While many diligent scholars disagree, most of their views derive from their presuppositions about the Scripture. The more literal a view, the more there is an adoption of a pre-millennial pre-tribulation position. We encourage you to review the various passages yourself and develop your own conclusions. This is our "Blessed Hope," and you will not find a more exciting and rewarding discovery. This is just a brief overview of a complex subject, so apply 2 Timothy 2:15: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."]

As I've stated before, this post-trib doctrine communicates quite clearly and concisely with no presuppositions. While on the other hand, this pre-trib doctrine is loaded with many "presuppositions" of extra-Biblical origin.

[This topic is perhaps the most demanding from the point of view of requiring the greatest amount of integration of many portions of Scripture. Remember Acts 17:11:

"Receive the Word with all readiness of mind, but search the Scriptures daily to prove whether those things be so."]

I do sincerely agree with the demands of forming doctrines of the last things. I also think that too many scholars have misplaced the dogmatic warnings of GOD and have subsequently substituted their understanding into the places belonging to scripture. Strict adherence to the truth of forbidding "private interpretation" of the Word has fallen to the restructuring of GOD's Word for the purpose suiting the writers. 2 Tim. 3:16 says:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: "

IT DOES NOT SAY - All DOCTRINE of scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable, for reproof... as seems to appear too often in the pre-trib doctrine. Use all scripture available that is pertinent, consistent in theme, context, and apparent timing. Dismiss ANY presuppositions you may have, they are your stumbling blocks, and make a poor and fallible foundation.

[A more comprehensive treatment of some of these topics is included in our Expositional Commentaries on the book of Daniel and the Thessalonian epistles. And if you don't happen to hold our views, don't worry about it. We'll explain it to you on the way up! Incidentally, Enoch is a model. He was pre-flood, not mid-flood or post-flood!]

Regarding having to explain it to us on the way up, what if you happen to be wrong, who will explain it to the many that have been taught to not concern themselves with being "prayed up" and "spiritually prepared" for the encounters of the great tribulation? And Enoch was not the model that Christ instructed us to study in preparing for the endtimes.

Here's the context of Enoch's translation from Genesis:

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Although the teaching of a mass "rapture" is not conveyed, the long accepted Rabbinical teaching is that Enoch's translation occurred because of his imputed righteousness. And how coincidental that this model of the rapture occurred for all believers to have for reference, both Old Testament and New, instead of just Israel or the Church.

And of further coincidence is that of verse 16 of Jude where the oldest prophecy of the Bible indicates that among the "judged" will be the "murmurers", the apostate of that day. Is this the Church of the tribulation after the "fire" of that day?

The examples that Christ gave for us to reference for coming times were Noah (Noe) and Lot's wife. Salvation and deliverance were still a reality to the earth's inhabitants in Noah's day, UP TO THE TIME GOD's WRATH "RAINED" DOWN. Noah and family spent a hundred years building the Ark and enduring the scoffers and persecution preceding GOD'sWrath. Yes, he began to load the Ark seven days before the flood, but gathering all the animals was probably no escape. And he and his family did enter into the Ark, Genesis 7:7 "because of the waters of the flood." And in Hebrews we see that GOD gave this one hundred-year warning of the judgment he was to endure and save his family:

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

And as Lot and his family were in the process of being delivered, the very day and moment, yet AS THE WRATH FELL on Sodom, his wife continued in the world, and was consumed by her desires. These were all post-trib and pre-wrath tales!

Just as the faithfulness of Noah was imputed to him as righteousness and served to condemn the world that refused to heed, the Church will likewise condemn the world by their faithful adherence to the Word during the time of Great Tribulation.

And by the way, don't take my word for it, or Hal's, or Chuck's, or Dave's, or David's, or John's, or Dwight's, or ANYONE else's word on the outcome. You are responsible for your being prepared! Pray that GOD saves you from the Wrath to come.

Using a play on Chuck's humor regarding the pre-trib doctrine, if you don't get it now, we'll have nearly 31/2 years to work through that provided you don't come down with "spiritual blindness". But it's really not funny, the Bride is going the path of the Bridegroom, like it or not. To live [in tribulation] is Christ; to die [from it] is gain. That was Paul's message. So much material and so little time or space. Lots more needs covering, revealing, and exploring. I hope to accomplish that as the Lord allows.

I am most prayerful my attitude of dissatisfaction has not tainted the relevancy of these findings. There is a great deal lacking in the practices of the pre-trib rapture doctrinal teachings. I would still rather have an incomplete doctrine based solely on GOD's Word than to have the most elaborate, detailed "explanations" of ANY scholar, so-called or otherwise.

My final word? The pre-trib doctrine is as close to a "cleverly devised fable" as you can get. The intent to deceive is undoubtedly not present, but it still contradicts the Word and itself, which is the responsibility of those who execute the proliferation of this doctrine. Start over, let GOD provide the picture, you only provide the color (if needed).

Still need a motivation for understanding the post-trib truths? GOD has THE final Word:

1 Peter 4:17-18 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Michel Rouse